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12/31/22

Seeburg 1000 Basic Background Music Library 4-1-1974 Part 5

It is the Spring of 1974, Disco is still up and coming, and you hear these tunes at your shopping mall as you pick out a pair of funky fresh bell-bottom pants. If you don't remember those days because you had yet to make your entrance into the world, or even one or both of your parents, fear not, this album has you covered! 

12/15/22

"It's Bliss" The Best In Popular Music- Jack Jackson English Orchestra- Rondo-lette SA 64

 

Do you like budget background music? I happen to, and chances are, if you are reading this, so are you.

This fantastic instrumental record album contains stereo versions of some tracks uploaded to this channel for many years, namely tracks A1, A3, A4, and B4- which appeared on the B-side of a Halo release of "The Vagabond King." It would be an understatement to say that hearing stereo versions of tracks one has heard a hundred times in mono is a treat.   

Tracklisting: 

A1 Jalousie 
A2 Night And Day 
A3 Chinese [Swedish] Polka 
A4 Star Dust 
B1You The Night And The Music 
B2 Street Scene 
B3 Solitude 
B4 Islands Bolero  

Rondo-lette Records was the great last flowering of Eli Oberstein's many budget record lines. It was 1959, and budget stereo records were really becoming a thing, to the point that even Eli Oberstein had to enter the market. Eli Oberstien had many stereo recordings, real and fake reprocessed mono, issued covering everything from jazz, show tunes, classical, polka, you know, the usual budget stuff the older crowd that actually had the money to buy a stereo capable record player in 1959 would be inclined to pick off the shelves and take home with them.   Rondo-lette Records also was home to cleverly marketed packages of the same 1940s material that Eli Oberstein had sold to the public multiple times via his stable of different record label lines that recycled and repackaged material with different records sizes, speeds, jacket art, and sometimes different generic artist credits.   But, Rondo-lette Records was also unique in the Eli Oberstein tradition since it featured unique back slicks with liner notes- something that hadn't been seen since the earliest Royale Record album line pressings. Nevertheless, the party ended quickly, as Eli Oberstein died in 1960. His son subsequently sold his father's massive record catalog to Precision Radiation Instruments, who bought out the Tops Records founders catalog around the same time. Even then, within a short span of years, Precision Radiation Instruments ended up selling its holdings to Pickwick. Pickwick seems to have only reissued a small portion of the material, mostly the super-famous big names that people of the 1960s and 1970s recognized still, like Lead Belly, Percy Faith, and such. Pickwick had its own library of generic music, so many Eli Oberstien generic recordings have not seen the light of day commercially since the 1950s. 

12/1/22

Red River Dave- Popular Range Songs (Varsity Records 6907)

 


Varsity Records was yet another label in the Oberstien fold of budget labels that endlessly reissued content from previously released Royale Records albums. These are reissued Sonora Records sides by Red River Dave, i.e., Dave McEnery, from the mid-1940s.

Tracklist

A1 Red River Valley
A2 Home On The Range
A3 Wagon Trail
A4 Empty Saddles
Written-By – Billy Hill

B1 Take Me Back To My Boots And Saddle
B2 Ole Faithful
B3 The Last Round-Up
B4 Mexicali Rose
Lap Steel Guitar – Roy Smeck
Vocals – Bob Houston

11/15/22

Jack Smith & Noro Morales Orchestra- Jack Smith Sings- Royale Records 45 RPM EP-267

 

Listen Here!

Tracklist 

A1  Babalu 

A2  Linda Mujer (You Never Say Yes) 

B1  Gimme A Little Kiss Will Ya Huh 

B2 Let's Put Out The Lights And Go To Sleep

11/1/22

Berlin Opera Soloists and Orchestra- Martha (Flotow) - Royale Records (EP 173) - 45 RPM Red Vinyl

 

Listen Here!

This appears to be a very obscure release, as a Google search only pulled up the more complete "excerpts" LP version of this album on Royale Records. No names of the selections are specified on the record label or jacket. The back side of the record jacket is a generic catalog back slick typical of most Eli Oberstien releases. 


10/31/22

Seeburg 1000 Basic Background Music Library 4-1-1974 Part 4

 

It is the Spring of 1974, Disco is still up and coming, and you hear these tunes at your shopping mall as you pick out a pair of funky fresh bell-bottom pants. If you don't remember those days because you had yet to enter the world, or even one or both of your parents, fear not; this album has you covered.

10/15/22

Gilmar Records CH-93 Compact LP

 

In 1956, Martian Gilbert formed Gilmar Records. Martian then kicked off his label's success with an extensive radio, television, and newspaper ad campaign selling a three-record set of EP 45s containing 18 hit songs. The campaign was a success and had nearly 10,000 orders placed. At first, the 45/78 rpm records were pressed with three songs per side. Also, they issued compact LPs with four hits per side. The 45 rpm generic sleeves suggest they made 12 inch LPs too- but I have never seen them (although I suspect they may have been issued on the Value Record label). Soon the 78 rpm releases were dropped, and the number of songs increased per side to eight songs per 45 rpm EP and five songs per 33 1/3 rpm compact LP. The company sponsored a TV program in the '60s named "The Record Hop." Gilmar Records folded sometime in the mid to late '60s (the exact date this occurred is uncertain).

10/1/22

Gilmar Records G-210 Full 45 RPM Extended Play Sound-A-Like 1957 45 RPM EP Pop Hits Cover Record

 

In 1956, Martian Gilbert formed Gilmar Records. Martian then kicked off his label's success with an extensive radio, television, and newspaper ad campaign selling a three-record set of E.P. 45's containing 18 hit songs. The campaign was a success and had nearly 10,000 orders placed. At first, the 45/78 rpm records were pressed with three songs per side. Also, they issued compact LPs with four hits per side. The 45 rpm generic sleeves suggest they made 12 inch LPs too- but I have never seen them (although I suspect they may have been issued on the Value Record label). Soon the 78 rpm releases were dropped, and the number of songs increased per side to eight songs per 45 rpm EP and five songs per 33 1/3 rpm compact LP. The company sponsored a TV program in the '60s named "The Record Hop." Gilmar Records folded sometime in the mid to late '60s (the exact date this occurred is not certain).  

  • A1 Stevens Mark - Let Me Be Your Teddy Bear   
  •  A2 Ceci Julian - Old Cape Cod  
  • A3 Jack Richards - It's Not For Me To Say    
  • B1 The Two Jays - Bye Bye Love   
  • B2 Stevens Mark - I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter    
  • B3 Jack Richards - Around The World In 80 Days

9/15/22

Gilmar Records G-257 Compact Long Play

 


Listen Here!

In 1956, Martian Gilbert formed Gilmar Records. Martian then kicked off his label's success with an extensive radio, television, and newspaper ad campaign selling a three-record set of E.P. 45s containing 18 hit songs. The campaign was a success and had nearly 10,000 orders placed. At first, the 45/78 rpm records were pressed with three songs per side. Also, they issued compact LPs with four hits per side. The 45 rpm generic sleeves suggest they made 12 inch LPs too- but I have never seen them (although I suspect they may have been issued on the Value Record label). Soon the 78 rpm releases were dropped, and the number of songs increased per side to eight songs per 45 rpm EP and five songs per 33 1/3 rpm compact LP. The company sponsored a TV program in the '60s named "The Record Hop." Gilmar Records folded sometime in the mid to late '60s (the exact date this occurred is uncertain).  

Tracklist:  

A1: Boll Weevil Song 

A2: Raindrops 

A3: Travelin' Man 

A4: Quarter To Three 

B1: Stand By Me

 B2: Writing On The Wall 

B3: Running Scared 

B4: Mama Said  

No artists are credited on the record label, and Gilmar Record sleeves were all generic (i.e., they were not release specific).


9/1/22

Vienna State Opera Orchestra- Dvorak Symphony in D Minor Op Posthumous (Concert Hall Records F-11) 1952

 

Per Discogs: "Concert Hall Society, Inc. was a record club founded in 1946. The company originally announced that it would turn out only 2,000 copies of its albums, pressing directly from "masters" and thus eliminating the "mother" and "stamper" discs used for mass production of commercial records. However, this policy was only maintained during the first few years. Concert Hall quite rapidly evolved into a budget label for classical music, often operating as a record sales club in various countries. Releases were available only to members.

[The] President of Concert Hall was Dr. David Josefowitz.

Concert Hall didn't have a pressing plant of its own but had its releases - and those of its various sub-labels - pressed by various pressing plants and then distributed across the US, Canada[,] and Europe. There were also releases for the Japanese market." (https://www.discogs.com/label/44301-Concert-Hall : accessed 26 July 2021)

Symphony In D Minor, Op. Posth.

Composed By – Antonín Dvořák

  • A1  1st Mvt.: Allegro 
  • A2  2nd Mvt.: Andante 
  • B1  3rd Mvt.: Scherzo: Allegro Feroce 
  • B2  4th Mvt.: Finale: Allegro Con Brio

Visit https://www.discogs.com/Antonin-Dvorak-Vienna-State-Opera-Orchestra-Henry-Swoboda-Symphony-In-D-Minor-Op-Posth/release/9614321 for liner notes, label scans, and other information about this release you may be interested in.


8/31/22

Seeburg 1000 Basic Background Music Library 4-1-1974 Part 3

It is the Spring of 1974, Disco is still up and coming, and you hear these tunes at your shopping mall as you pick out a pair of funky fresh bell-bottom pants. If you don't remember those days because you had yet to make your entrance into the world, or even one or both of your parents, fear not; this album has you covered.

8/15/22

Selections From Roberta & Others

Royale Records was king of the junk budget record labels of the 1950s. Eli Oberstien flooded the market with a seemingly endless stream of records in virtually all standard speeds and sizes for records of the period, except for 16 2/3 rpm, sadly. I find most eBay sellers think these are worth money; they are not, at least not more than a couple of dollars. 

Eli Oberstein benefited greatly from acquiring several defunct record labels that happened to have sides recorded by big names. Majestic records was a star-studded record label that initially had everything going for it until it fell apart and closed shop in 1947. Majestic Records had artists like Percy Faith, The Three Suns, Louis Prima, Georgia Gibbs, and many more artists, many of which were still making new content in the 1950s and had perhaps grown in popularity since their Majestic Record days. 

Varsity Records was yet another label in the Oberstein fold of budget labels. In its first life, it was a business venture selling music Eli Oberstein recorded to be a record producer after his falling out with RCA Victor around 1939. Still, it went bankrupt fairly quickly. Varsity's second life was much more successful for Eli. This time around, Varsity Records was an essentially budget album record line in the early 1950s, although 45 and 78 rpm EP releases were also issued. 

Varsity records appear to have been phased out when Eli Oberstein rolled out the Gramophone Records line around 1953. This transition is evidenced in fact there are many copies of later Varsity Records pressings discovered inside Gramophone Records labeled jackets. 

Many Varsity record releases ended up being recycled into what became the Gramophone/Concertone/Halo record lines, which featured strictly 12-inch LP-only releases (although some 10" Concertone releases are known to exist), initially, all releases were two similar/related Varsity/Royale Record albums and or the contents on one album paired with a "filler" side pressed directly from the pressing masters of an older Royale release, and issued together as a single album. It is impressive how much mileage/money Eli Oberstein managed to get out of the same recycled material acquired in shrewd business moved involving purchasing the back catalogs of defunct record labels. 

Tracklist
A1  You're Devastating
A2  Yesterdays
A3  The Touch Of Your Hand- Percy Faith
A4  Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - Ray Rorey with Johnnie Guarnieri Trio
A5  Fantasie Impromptu
A6  Sonata In C
A7  Minute Waltz
A8  Valse Bluette

[Side two of this release is just side-B of Royale Records release Another Hour Of Light Concert Music 1419B credited to the Royale Concert Orchestra.] 

B1  Evensong
B2  Minuet
B3  Meditation From "Thais"
B4  Souvenir
B5  Lebensraum
B6  Hymn To The Sun
B7  La Paloma
B8  Spring Song

 

8/1/22

The Royal Farnsworth Symphony Orchestra- American In Paris & Porgy and Bess on Design Records (A Pickwick Corp. Production)

 

An American In Paris
Porgy and Bess Suite

The Design Records label was Pickwick's first LP record line. The initial releases had liner notes, jackets with the album title printed on the spine, and inner sleeves. 1957-1958 was the golden age for budget record labels, as far as the quality of the product was concerned. In an era where "Tops/Mayfair" was king, every budget label had to match the high production standards, high-quality pressings, and quality jackets and sleeves to match. 

That being the case, Design Records was trying to release the best possible products for the very competitive budget record market during the later 1950s. The stereo recordings were true stereo, and the recording quality was excellent.

    





7/31/22

Seeburg 1000 Basic Background Music Library 4-1-1974 Part 2

It is the Spring of 1974, Disco is still up and coming, and you hear these tunes at your shopping mall as you pick out a pair of funky fresh bell-bottom pants. If you don't remember those days because you had yet to make your entrance into the world, or even one or both of your parents, fear not, this album has you covered.

 

7/15/22

Royale Dance Orchestra- Dance Party An Hour Of Modern Dance Tempos (Royale Records 1277)

Experience one of the many 40-45 minute Eli Oberstien "hour" albums released during the earlier 1950s.  Enjoy!

Tracklist
A1  Rhumba Fantasy
A2  La Cumparsita
A3  Minute Samba
A4  I'm Living From Kiss To Kiss
A5  Bomba
A6  Baila La Conga
A7  Momba
B1  All Through The Night
B2  The Charleston
B3  Clarinet Polka
B4  Let Me Call You Sweetheart
B5  Emperor Waltz
B6  Down Yonder
B7  Virginia Reel
B8  Red River Valley With Calls


 

7/1/22

Saturday Nite Date - Dean Lester Orchestra - Crown Records 5039


Saturday Nite Date
Dean Lester and His Hollywood Recording Orchestra
Cover Photography: J. H. Maddocks
Art Direction & Production: Sheldon Marks & Florette Bihari
Crown Records HI-FI CLP 5039

Tracklist:

Sweet And Lovely
I May Be Wrong
Penthouse Serenade
The Continental
Ramona
When Shadows Fall
Autumn Leaves
Too Marvelous
Mean To Me
The Night Is Young
Ciribiribin
Tenderly

For Your Enjoyment! I couldn't figure out where these tracks were available online until I uploaded this video, and Content-ID did its thing. They are online under an obscure generic artist attribution, "Big Band All Stars" under the album title "When Shadows Fall." Pretty much, virtually all recordings found on Crown releases can be found online by those that supposedly own the rights to them- the trick is figuring out under what title and artist attribution they have decided to use.

6/29/22

I Removed The Annoying Ads


To my followers, I am sorry for the ads I put on the blog, besides the one on the bottom for my genealogy research business- did you know I became an ICAPGen credentialed Accredited Genealogist this Spring? Someone has to have a burning genealogy problem which they want a professional to take a crack at around these parts. If you know anyone in need of a professional genealogist, would you do me a favor and ask them to consider hiring me? I will give anyone who refers me to someone who orders a project a $100 credit towards their next project with me- just make sure to mention this blog by name in any initial contacts with me through my business website: www.myfamilygen.com  

Anyway, I was only earning just over a penny a month, so I figured that ruining the user experience for a very slow buck (i.e., penny) just wasn't worth it. 

Thank you for your patience and understanding, both for the ads and the shameless self-promotion of my genealogy business. 

Have a great day!

6/15/22

Bobby Krane And His Orchestra - A Tribute To Glenn Miller - Bravo! Records - K-118


For your listening pleasure!

Tracklist

A1 In The Mood
A2 Londonderry Air
A3 Moonlight Serenade
A4 Jeannie With The Light Brown Hair
A5 Volga Boatman
B1 I've Got A Gal In Kalamazoo
B2 Habanera
B3 Chattanooga Choo Choo
B4 Anitra's Dance
B5 Battle Hymn Of The Republic



6/1/22

Stephen Foster Favorites - Orchestral - Crown Records 5041


 If you only had the information written on the original jacket and record labels for this album release on Crown Record, you would have never known that this album was already online under the artist attribution of "The Stripped Jackets"! Since I bothered to record it and upload it- you might as well enjoy it!

Tracklist
A1  Beautiful Dreamer
A2  Come Where My Love Lies Dreaming
A3  Oh Susanna
A4  Massa's In De Cold Cold Ground
A5  Gentle Annie
B1  Jeannie With The Light Brown Hair
B2  Old Black Joe
B3  Camptown Racer
B4  My Old Kentucky Home
B5  Old Folks At Home
Credits
Art Direction – Sheldon Marks

Crown Records was the doing of the infamous (depending on who you talk to) Bihari brothers. These men made a living exploiting musicians for their cheap vinyl record empire- which started out as a semi-reputable R&B label through Modern Records. However, even then, their practices of listing themselves as song co-writers when they copyrighted their artist's music before releasing their records foreshadowed the sketchy behavior they engaged in to make a quick buck. By keeping as much of the record sales revenue to themselves, they made a living at the expense of the artists their records featured. 

Between 1957-1972 Crown records turned out around 740 unique album releases, the vast majority of which are already online by those claiming ownership rights of the material. The label issued records of every popular music genre by obscure no-names and older material of more prominent name artists. The odds of one finding a Crown Record at your nearest thrift store is pretty decent; they made them deep and sold them cheap after all. 

5/31/22

Seeburg 1000 Basic Background Music Library 4-1-1974 Part 1

It is the Spring of 1974, Disco is still up and coming, and you hear these tunes at your shopping mall as you pick out a pair of funky fresh bell-bottom pants. If you don't remember those days because you had yet to make your entrance into the world, or even one or both of your parents, fear not, this album has you covered.

5/1/22

Paul Martin & His Old Timers- The Roaring Twenties Tops Record 12-605-1&2

Listen Here!

A1: Alabamy Bound
A2: Way Down Yonder In New Orleans
B1: The Varsity Drag
B2: Sweet Sue, Just You
B3: Mississippi Mud

C1: Side By Side
C2: Back Home Again In Indiana
D1: Look For The Silver Lining
D2: I Love A Banjo
D3: The World Is Waiting For The Sunrise
 

4/15/22

Barber Shop Quartet by The Parker Brothers Bravo! Records (K146)

 

Barber Shop Quartet by The Parker Brothers Bravo! Records (K146) 1959  

Tracklist:  

  • 1. There's A Tavern In Town 
  • 2. Annie Rooney 
  • 3. In The Good Old Summertime 
  • 4. Beautiful Dreamer 
  • 5. I've Been Working On The Railroad 
  • 6. Clementine 
  • 7. Cradle Song 
  • 8. For He's A Jolly Good Fellow 
  • 9. Swing Low, Sweet Chariot 
  • 10. I Want A Girl 
  • 11. Jeannie With The Light Brown Hair 
  • 12. Old MacDonald Had A Farm 
  • 13. Nobody Knows The Trouble I've Seen 
  • 14. Strolling Thru The Park 
  • 15. Home On The Range

4/1/22

Martin Miller And His Orchestra- Cole Porter Favorites -Instrumentals (Goldentone Records C 4051)

Listen Here!

Golden Tone records was a cheap budget label specializing in the reissue of older Tops Records and selected Eli Oberstein material.   

  • Track Listing:
  • A1 In The Still Of The Night 
  • A2 I Love Paris 
  • A3 I've Got You Under My Skin 
  • A4 Wunderbar 
  • A5 Use Your Imagination 
  • B1 Allez-Vous-En, Go Away 
  • B2 True Love 
  • B3 Could It Be You 
  • B4 I Concentrate On You
  •  B5 So In Love

3/31/22

78 RPM Acetate Record- A Personal [Happy Birthday] Greeting From Mother Goose [for Debbie]- Six Nursery Rhymes

 

Little can be found online about Personna Disk, Inc.; they sold these children's birthday records with commonly given names of children with a custom recorded introduction on the first side of the record. This record was meant for a then little girl named Debbie. Debbie is likely a grand- or great-grandmother by now- if she had children and those children had children, etc. This product appears to be of 1950s vintage. One doesn't see too many commercially mass-produced custom acetate records like this one; it is definitely an oddity for sure! My copy and the one other example on Discogs appear to represent all that can be found about them online. If anyone knows anything more about Personna Disk, Inc., we would all appreciate you sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.   But, one thing is for sure, the equipment they used to lathe this record introduced a rather noticeable AC hum into the audio feed (some of which could not be filtered out by either DeNoise LF or Audacity's noise removal tools), and the amount of reverb used throughout both sides is almost too much to enjoy listening comfortably, especially in the introduction segment of side one. What was up with the early 1950s and putting very noticeable reverb effects on children's records- was it to try to mask the lo-fi-ness of the original recordings?   

Tracklist 

A  A Personal Greeting From Mother Goose 

B1  Little Bo Peep 

B2  Three Blind Mice 

B3  Sing A Song Of Sixpence 

B4  Pop Goes The Weasel 

B5  London Bridge 

B6  Hickory Dickory Dock

3/26/22

Irving Kaufman & Regal Records Orchestra- Little Tots' Nursery Tunes 101

 

                                                Listen here!

Little Tots' Nursery Tunes Records was a budget children's record line starting in 1923. The label was a subsidiary of Regal Records, which mostly issued Emerson Records masters- Emerson was the man behind the ground-breaking Little Wonder Records line, working in partnership with Columbia Records. They controlled some of the major patents needed to legally operate in the United States. Per Wikipedia- "Regal Records was an American record label owned by the Plaza Music Company that issued recordings from 1921 through 1931. Masters were recorded by Emerson Records and issued mostly in chain stores for 50 cents each."

3/15/22

Peter Nero Trio- Just For You (Premier Records PM 2011)- Full Album

 

Premier Records, the parent label of Spin-O-Rama Coronet, Twinkle, Directional Sound, Award, Blue Ribbon, and Celebrity Records, was a budget label that specialized in generic, older material of name artists and knock-off/craze cash-in albums like any other of its time. The majority of the content that appears on Premier was traded around with other budget labels. This was especially true with their more generic music releases. Most of the material on their various record lines is predominantly uploaded/monetized officially by the parties that own most of the recordings that appear to have been issued on this umbrella of record labels. 

All the recordings here can be apparently found online already- but I uploaded this album just to be sure because I wasn't 100% sure with general Google searches. 

Tracklist: 
Scratch My Bach 
Lullaby Of The Leaves 
It Might As Well Be Spring 
Our Love Is Here To Stay 
Red's Romp (Dedicated To Red Norvo) 
There'll Never Be Another You 
Love For Sale 
What Is This Thing Called Love 
How About You 

Credits: Max Wayne - Bass Dick Stein - Drums Peter Nero - Piano

3/1/22

Tops Records 45-R276-49 Top Hit Covers

 

Tops Records was a giant of the budget record label world in the 1950s. Tops/Mayfield Records set the bar of budget record label releases to an all-time high, blowing the Eli Oberstien and Don Garner record lines out of the water in terms of quality and price. Every new budget record label company that joined the market in the late 1950s typically had, at least, full-color photo jackets and liner notes. Tops originally entered the market as a seller of used jukebox records, moving quickly to issuing their own records containing covers of the day's top-charting hits. After success with cover records, they moved on to releasing full albums of various genres to fill the music interests of the mass market.

Tracklist

A1 –Laurie Wayne, Bud Roman- Little Child

A2 –Les Anthony And Orchestra- The Poor People Of Paris

B1 –Bud Roman- Ninety-Nine Years

B2 –Danny Daniels, Les Anthony Orchestra- Tutti Frutti

Gilmar Records Compact LP D-G-262

In 1956, Martian Gilbert formed Gilmar Records and had an extensive radio, television, and newspaper ad campaign selling a three-record set of EP 45s containing 18 hit songs. The campaign was a success and had nearly 10,000 orders placed. At first, the 45/78 rpm records were pressed with three songs per side. Also, they issued compact LPs with four hits per side. The 45 rpm generic sleeves suggest they made 12 inch LPs too- but I have never seen them. Soon the 78 rpm releases were dropped, and the number of songs increased per side to eight songs per 45 rpm EP and five songs per 33 1/3 rpm compact LP. The company sponsored a TV program in the '60s named "The Record Hop." They folded sometime in the mid to late '60s (exact date not known).

Tracklist: Side A

A1 Hey Mr. Postman
A2 Fool #1
A3 Big Bad John
A4 I Want To Thank You

Side B

B1 A Wonder Like You
B2 Bristol Stomp
B3 Tower of Strength
B4 Runaround Sue

No artists credited.

2/10/22

String Of Pearls - Music Made Famous By Glenn Miller - Crown Records 5073


Apparently, the no-name recording group appeared on several other budgets record labels- SPC and other record lines, especially under different artist attributions on various albums made up of different mixtures of tune sets! In short, unless you were in the know, without ripping and uploading this album for the purpose of Content-ID track identification assistance, you would have never known this album was technically already online- just scattered in different albums attributed to various artists you would have never thought to look for!